Fertility Awareness Method (FAM) and Birth Control with Nathalie Daudet

Nathalie: Fertility awareness is not this like woo, natural hippie thing. It's very much based on the science of our physiology and our hormones. And it's very common sense. It doesn't require you to change anything about your body or fertility. You are simply observing your fertility signs and then choosing when to have unprotected sex and when not to.

Nicole: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Multitudes Podcast. I'm Nicole, and today we are talking about FAM, also known as the Fertility Awareness Method, and we'll be talking about the practicalities of implementing FAM, to the wider conversation around birth control. And my guest today is Nathalie Daudet. Nathalie is a fertility awareness instructor and educator, and also creator of the Fertility Awareness Project.

This is a bit of a longer episode as we get into topics such as her background in social work, influencers in the online space that are shaping and polarizing the narrative about birth control, other birth control methods, and ideas for how to involve your partner and how to talk to your OBGYN or doctor in your birth control decisions.

If you are here to learn a little bit more about the technical practicalities of FAM, you'll find that later in the episode around the hour mark, and you can also check out the show notes and the chapter notes listed. (Depending on where you're listening for specific chapter markers that speak best to what you're interested in learning about FAM and birth control.)

And I also encourage you to consider the whole episode as a resource if you're curious about FAM, and if you're considering this method or other birth control methods, it's definitely worth listening to. And Nathalie is also so warm, wise, non-judgmental, and just real about approaching FAM and I think that shines through in our entire conversation.

Please be sure to subscribe to follow Multitudes as we will have plenty of new content coming out soon, and I will see you on the other side. 

Nicole: Hi Nathalie.

Nathalie: It's so good to be here!

Nicole: I’m so excited to have you here! And thanks so much for joining. And Nathalie Daudet is a certified fertility awareness educator, social worker and menstrual cycle coach. She discovered fertility awareness after searching high and low for a non-hormonal method of birth control.

And after learning the magic of fertility awareness and the gift of body literacy, she decided to pursue formal fertility awareness training, and the Fertility Awareness Project was born. And hundreds of people worldwide have learned to chart their menstrual cycle for birth control with her online course Cycle Love. So welcome, Nathalie. Thanks so much for being here.

Nathalie: Thanks for having me, Nicole. I'm so glad you asked me to be on your podcast. I'm really excited about your new project and I can't wait to chat about all things FAM.

Nicole:  Yeah, absolutely. We'll definitely get into all things FAM - fertility awareness method, and first I would love to talk a little bit more about your story and how you became interested in being a fertility instructor.

Nathalie: So, I discovered fertility awareness when I was searching for a method of contraception. I was doing a lot of research on all of the available methods, as someone who didn't come out of high school sex ed, feeling like I was empowered with all of the options. 

It was only something that once it became relevant to me, I dove in and looked into what was available, and I did a lot of research on hormonal contraception and then the available non-hormonal methods and came across a lot of books and articles, and blog posts as I did my research and eventually decided on wanting to pursue something that was non-hormonal. 

So, I went to my nurse practitioner and asked if I could be fitted for a diaphragm, and she told me that diaphragms were hard to access in Canada, hard to get fitted for. I know a little bit more about diaphragms now, but in the moment, I was kind of just going off what she was telling me, and she recommended that I look into the fertility awareness methods and referred me to a fertility awareness educator in person. 

And so, I didn't really know a lot about fertility awareness, but when I went to the class, once I learned kind of how it worked and what fertility awareness meant as birth control, it made a lot of sense to me and it fit really well with how I wanted to relate to my body and the choices that I wanted to make. 

And I didn't want to feel constrained by taking medication. And so, fertility awareness just kind of fit really well for me personally, for my relationship. And I took the class and then started charting my cycle, and then it kind of took off from there. And since then, I believe that was seven years ago. 

I've been charting my cycle ever since and have really immersed myself in fertility awareness, body literacy, empowered and informed decision-making around contraception. And just really wanting to educate people about their bodies and really help people feel like they're making basically empowered choices about their contraception.

Nicole: Thank you so much for that introduction and talking a little bit about educating people about their bodies. You also have a background in social work and can you talk a little bit about that and also what you were doing before you became a fertility instructor?

Nathalie: Yeah, thanks for asking Nicole. I don't think anyone has asked me that on a podcast, so I’ve always wanted to talk about the field of social work and kind of how I came into this work and also how a lot of what I'm doing still is really connected to social work philosophies. 

Basically, what I was doing before I had my undergrad degree in social work and I went on to work in, I guess family and teenager and youth work. And following that I worked in mental health with adults mostly, doing a lot of traveling. I live in Manitoba, Canada and there are a lot of remote communities, so I would fly to and drive to remote communities and provide service in those communities. Basically, yeah, basically in the field of mental health, I would say.

But it was pretty overarching and touched a lot of different areas of social work and I really loved the social justice aspect of social work. It's a huge pillar of the field of social work. And I found at the same time the work that I was doing to be really demanding on my own mental health ironically.

 I felt like I was not maybe as supported in my role as I could have been, or maybe I was pretty green and being thrown into some situations that went in over my head. But I found that the longer I was working, the more I felt my mental health was taking a hit, and also like my psycho health too, and my physical health. 

And so, I decided to quit my job and pursue further education, before my business had really taken off and before I could really only teach fertility awareness. So, I decided to do my master's in social work. I started that in I believe, 2019 then finished in 2021. And while I was doing my master's, the pandemic happened, and that was kind of happening during the time that I went back to school. 

So, as I went back to school, my intention was to think about menstruality and how that connected to mental health. But in the end, I really have incorporated that into my work a little bit more subtly. 

I'm still teaching fertility awareness as birth control primarily. But at the same time, a lot of the ideas and philosophies that underpin social work still continue to inform the work that I do.

Even though I feel quite separate from the field of social work, I don't do the same type of work that I did before. But I would say in the terms of education and informed choice and creating accessibility and focusing on justice and feminism and all of these different areas, still, what I feel that I'm doing is still very connected to social work, if that makes any sense.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious, so you started your fertility awareness instructor business before you went back to school? 

Nathalie: Yeah. I would say I kind of slowly started sharing about my own charting journey on Instagram and started sharing about my own teacher training journey on Instagram, and that is kind of how I dipped my toe into the water. I started taking on clients as I was finishing my FAM teacher training, which is what I trained to be a FAM instructor. And then once I had enough clients that I was able to quit my job, and at the same time I was going back to school, was when I really kind of dove headfirst into teaching fertility awareness. 

I would say I kind of slowly made the transition over time. And I was taking courses on the side and it was very much a side hustle while I was still doing social work. And then eventually it kind of transitioned more into a full-time gig.

Nicole:  Got it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And, before we get into more of your full-time gig and more about charting what you've mentioned, I'm curious about when you were more traditionally in social work. You mentioned kind of, that you were burning out. And I imagine that this happens a lot in social work.

And I'm curious if you could speak to that or anyone who's working in social work and social justice, and like how you think about the burnout and managing your business and that sort of thing.

Nathalie: That's a really good question. I think what I can speak to most is my own experience in noticing where I was seeing signs of burnout, and that was really strong in my cycle. And noticing that I was having longer and longer cycles and more delayed ovulation is something that's been really typical for me when I've been under stress.

So that was kind of the first clue for me that there was something in my life that was out of balance or needs weren't being met. 

And, that really kind of prompted me to take a closer look at what was going on and finding that I didn't have the capacity to continue the way that I was. I think people who are in helping professions are generally really empathetic and put their whole heart into the work that they do, which is a really admirable thing.

And at the same time, I think it can be really easy to give everything away and give your whole self away and not keep any for yourself and not have those boundaries. And you find yourself thinking about clients when you're not at work or you are losing sleep over things that are happening at work, is not a sustainable way to stay in the field for a really long time.

And then I also think it's really important to evaluate the work culture that you're in. And a lot of work cultures in this field don't have the resources or aren't adequately funded and can't support their employees the way that they should be supported because there's so much vicarious trauma that happens in that field. So much that social workers are exposed to and see, and then are expected to just go back to work and like nothing has happened because that's their job. 

But we are all human, we all have capacity. We all have like this window of tolerance and when things become too much and they are outside our window of tolerance, it can really take its toll on our health. 

So, it's kind of tricky because the system is not caring for employees the way that they should be. And yet I don't think that's the employer's fault. I think it really is a wider issue and especially, I mean, this will be different wherever people live, but especially here, I feel like the need is so much greater than the resources.

And so, it can feel really helpless to be confronted with all these problems and not have the resources to figure it out.  I don't really know what the solution is. I just know that we can't be good helpers if we are not taking care of ourselves. And it's okay to have boundaries and limits, even when we're working with people who are in really tough situations. It's a hard thing to navigate.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that because I feel like it's something that's overlooked. And I know we've heard about burnout a lot in the medical community during Covid 19, the pandemic. But I think it's also important to remember that it expands to a wider network of people who are providing support to others in various forms. 

Nathalie: Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think the pandemic really highlighted that. And there were certain professions that were sounding the alarm bells, and it kind of comes to consciousness and then it fades away. But for people working in the field, it's not something that ever goes away. It's something they have to deal with every day. Yeah, it's really tough.

Nicole: It's hard to kind of turn your brain off, especially when your heart is open in that way, so.

Nathalie: Yeah. Absolutely.

Nicole: Yeah. Well thank you for sharing about your time in social work, and I would love to talk a little bit about your experience now as a fertility instructor and could you tell us a little bit about what a fertility instructor does and also a little bit about the FAM method or FAM in general.

What is that fertility awareness method?

Nathalie: Yeah, so FAM, as we've been throwing around FAM, FAM stands for the fertility awareness method. You can also talk about broadly fertility awareness-based methods, which include multiple different ways of interpreting fertility biomarkers and using that information to avoid pregnancy, or to conceive, or just to monitor reproductive health. 

We have all of these body signs that occur that we can pay attention to, and they tell us where we are in the cycle relative to ovulation. So, people have heard of the symptothermal method of fertility awareness. It's a method under the umbrella of fertility awareness-based methods. We track basal body temperature. We track cervical mucus and basal body temperature rises very slightly after ovulation. So, it's a way of tracking progesterone, the progesterone response that happens after ovulation and to know that ovulation has occurred. And then cervical mucus changes throughout the cycle. But it really tells us our levels of estrogen.

It tells us where we are in our fertile window, and it tells us when ovulation might happen by changing in its color and consistency, and sensation. So, fertility awareness-based methods can use basal body temperature, cervical mucus. Other methods will also use hormone testing like LH testing. And we really just get a picture of observation and awareness of ovulation. Really, I feel like a lot of people are familiar with their periods, with menstruation, but between one period and the next, there is a lot of hormonal change that happens that's centered around ovulation, which is a very brief event, 12 to 24 hours that would be alive for in the cycle. And huge hormonal shifts happen around that single event.

And so, with fertility awareness methods, we track those hormonal changes. And I'm super passionate about using fertility awareness as birth control. Basically, avoiding unprotected sex when conception is possible and enjoying worry-free unprotected sex when it's the reverse; when pregnancy is not possible because there's no egg to fertilize. And a lot of people will also use the same information to conceive.

So, it's really just about observing our bodies and reading our bodies' signs, which is an incredibly empowering practice. Because you'll notice your period, but unless you're paying attention to it, you're not necessarily gonna know that you're ovulating. So, once you learn how to read the signs of ovulation, you open your eyes to this whole new world that your body is showing you. So, fertility awareness instructors basically learn a method of fertility awareness. 

There are many, many methods of fertility awareness that all vary in the biomarkers that they chart, but they're based on similar science. And fertility awareness instructors will teach how to interpret those signs, those ovulation signs. They'll teach a very specific way of charting those signs on either a paper chart or an app with specific symbols and a standardized way of observation. And then the third piece, is, they will teach and interpret the chart that the client has collected their data on.

So basically, clarifying what's on the chart, interpreting what's on the chart, and making sure that that client is charting correctly, which is super important, especially if someone is avoiding, to have someone to reflect back what they're observing and to fit that into the method that they're learning.

And then you can apply the rules of that method. Basically, how to interpret the biomarkers if you are avoiding, when it's safe to go unprotected; when you want to stay protected or abstain. All of those types of things come in when you're teaching fertility awareness. And then you're also really as a fertility awareness educator, working with people across their entire reproductive lifespan. 

So, I've had clients who I worked with three years ago who were avoiding, and are now coming back. And they use that same information to conceive and now they're wanting to avoid postpartum or plan their next pregnancy. You have people who have struggled to conceive for a really long time and you're working with them through the highs and lows of that.

And so, you really, in that way, it does connect very much to social work, in that, you are very intimately in someone's life in a very precious, vulnerable piece of their life; sexuality, conception, contraception, body literacy, all these things that are so personal, walk people through in a really non-judgmental and open and informed way.

So that's the best way I can describe the work that a fertility awareness educator does. It's more than just education. It's also helping someone apply that information to their own bodies and also open up the doors for more learning and more information about their bodies.

Nicole: Yeah. Wow. Thank you. That is a super holistic explanation of what FAM is and what a fertility instructor does, and I love that you talk about it as an empowering practice and you're showing up in a time in their life, that is really important and for making important decisions.

 I captured that there are three main things that you can help with. It's reading the signs that your body is telling you through changes in your hormones during your menstrual cycle, and then how to chart that either in an app or on paper, and then clarifying what that means, reading off the chart.

And I would also love to talk a little bit about other methods that people might have heard of, and they might be thinking, how is this connected to or adjacent to FAM? Before we dig a little bit more into FAM itself. And I'm thinking that people have heard of natural family Planning and the pullout method.

And can you talk a little bit about how that's connected? How it's different?

Nathalie: Yeah, that's such a great question. There is a lot of misconceptions swirling around fertility awareness and still, even though it's becoming more mainstream, I think with social media, there is still a lot of misconceptions. 

And I think people will tell, maybe their doctors that they're thinking about using FAM or maybe a parent or a sibling, and there are all sorts of responses that you can get because if you don't fully understand what fertility awareness is, you could mistake it with the rhythm method.

You could also think that it is someone loosely charting their fertility signs, but not actually sticking to a method. Also, people have probably heard of natural family planning, which has a lot of religious associations. So basically, fertility awareness-based methods include both secular and religious forms of fertility charting. And natural family planning typically refers to religious methods of fertility charting.

So, in a lot of Catholic circles, people will avoid the use of hormonal contraception and will also avoid barrier methods. So natural family planning was created with this idea in mind that people could avoid pregnancy, but not use barrier methods or hormonal contraception. And so, there's a lot of teaching around abstinence in the fertile window, as well as maybe some teaching around marriage, sexuality and that sort of thing. 

Fertility awareness methods that are secular will include methods other than abstinence in the fertile window, like barrier methods or perfect withdrawal, which we also call the pull method or alternative sex. So, there is a big difference between the two. 

Not all natural family planning instructors will include religious elements in their teaching. It just depends on the instructor. In some schools, teacher training institutes will require that their educators speak to religion. So, it really depends person to person. I'm taking a teacher training right now with Billings, which is a method of natural family planning, and yet I am a secular instructor. 

So, there's a lot of kind of nuance and crossover and it really just depends on the instructor. But a lot of people are surprised when they realize that there is this religious element to fertility awareness-based methods. Basically, the origins of those methods, it's largely [religious].

And then we have the book Taking Charge of Your Fertility written by Toni Weschler. Kind of like this opening of, I would say, more secular. I'm sure there was other openings and secular instructors before then, but I feel like then, a secular approach to fertility charting became more widespread. And now there are many instructors who will teach a secular method of fertility awareness. So, that is one huge piece. 

The other thing people will mix up FAM with is the rhythm method. And the rhythm method basically says that everyone has a 28-day cycle and everyone ovulates on day 14. So, if we can track our period, we'll know that ovulation will be 14 days later and we'll avoid unprotected sex around day 14.

But the reality is that very few people have 28-day cycles every cycle, and not everyone ovulates on day 14. So, it's accurate if you have that cycle, but for most people, they don't. And fertility awareness relies on your real-time indicators of fertility, which change from cycle to cycle. It's normal to have some variation of ovulation and your cycle length each cycle. 

And then you also mentioned the pullout method. And the pullout method in fertility awareness speak - we would refer to it as “withdrawal”. And withdrawal can be effective, but there are some practices or rules around withdrawal to make it as effective as possible. So, if pullout is being used lazily or it's not being used properly every time, it’s not going to be as effective. 

And when I work with my clients, we talk about making the pullout method or withdrawal as effective as possible. So, pullout, withdrawal, however, you want to call it, is an option in the fertile window. There are some caveats or things to know about it that goes a little bit more in-depth, but it is an option along with barrier methods like condoms or diaphragms, and then alternative sex in the fertile window.

Nicole: Got it. Thank you so much for that overview. There are so many different methods, and they are really interesting in terms of the minor differences. 

And yeah, I would love to talk a little bit about what you mentioned in terms of social media and also in connecting to this idea of misconceptions and myths out there. And when I'm thinking about social media, we were talking earlier about this idea of these influencers on TikTok who are encouraging women to not use birth control.

And I'm actually going to read a little bit from these two articles. One is from Wire and one is from Vice and I will put these articles in the show notes.

“There's a corner on TikTok encouraging women to get off birth control and try natural contraceptive methods that's become even more dangerous at a time when millions of people across the US are no longer able to access abortions. 

On TikTok, videos with hashtag natural birth control have been viewed nearly 3 million times. Some of the content creators advertise themselves as holistic healers or hormone coaches - euphemisms for not a doctor. And they stare into the camera and call hormonal birth control, toxic or unnecessary while saying the pill causes cancer and other illnesses.

They share their own stories about getting off hormonal birth control and encourage other people to do the same. And another TikTok viewed 1.1 million times and pops up in searches, says in quotes, ‘The birth control industry isn’t going to like the fertility awareness women uprising’ while claiming natural methods are 98% effective at preventing pregnancy.”

And I bring this up because, in the article, it also mentions and sums up this idea that a birth control backlash could result in increased unplanned pregnancies. And the consequences are made more complicated by America's political climate and unsatisfactory healthcare. And I would love to just touch on this and unpack it a little bit. What you are noticing, how you're responding as a fertility instructor to this idea of people encouraging people who menstruate and have uteruses to get off birth control.

Nathalie: Oh, my goodness Nicole! There's so much to unpack here, there's like so many thoughts running through my brain!

Nicole: Yes! 

Nathalie: And I think I love that you brought this up. Because I think it offers a really rich conversation around the nuance here, around fertility education, around access to contraception and abortion, around media influencers. I think the first thing that I just want to say when we read articles like this is that there are a lot of wellness coaches out there or hormone coaches or naturopaths, anyone who's in kind of the hormone health space and has rare take in fertility, I'm just generalizing here, not everyone will fall in that camp. 

But there are a lot of people who will take a little bit of fertility education and claim to essentially teach fertility awareness or coach people to use natural birth control. There are also a lot of influencers who are paid by companies like Natural Cycles and Daisy, which are algorithm-based, temperature-only method. And these people who have really large followings and have some content around hormone health or wellness will share a lot of information on natural birth control. And the main thing is that these people are not trained in fertility awareness education. 

Maybe some of them are, but the majority aren't. And, they, I think, do a disservice to the work that fertility awareness educators do because it's not simply about tracking your temperature and putting it into an app. There is a lot of information and education that goes into using a method of fertility awareness properly, and it's not to gatekeep at all.

It's just to understand the weight that is involved, that it's not just about ditching the pill and tracking your temp and everything is super easy, an uphill from there, like using FAM is harder than taking hormonal birth control. It does require a level of commitment outside of just taking a pill each day.

And I think that's where the nuance is lost in TikTok videos about natural birth control. And it does give fertility awareness-based methods a bad rap because you'll have articles that don't fully get what FAM is and that it can be an effective method of birth control, but you have to be charting properly and thoroughly.

Like, it's not about picking and choosing or just charting a little bit here and there. You do have to commit to the method. And I've talked recently on my page about how I don't think everybody should use fertility awareness. I love fertility awareness. I'm so passionate about it, and it works really well for me and a lot of people I know. But it's also not for everybody. 

And it requires that level of commitment. Your partner needs to be on board. You can't be in a state of crisis when you're learning it like it does require a little bit of a learning curve and it's not hard to learn at all. And there are lots of resources that people can use to self-teach, but at the same time, it isn't for everyone.

So that's the first thing that I want to mention about that. And the other piece that's kind of come up recently on TikTok, because I am on TikTok and consume a lot of TikTok and I also do post on TikTok, but I mostly just watch TikTok. There is like, out of this, like from the article that you read and out of that conversation, there are a lot of people critiquing this content as anti-birth control.

 And there's a little bit of that language in this article as well, that now suddenly we are in a space where there are pro and anti-birth control camps. And I also have a problem with that as well because I think we can point out the problems with birth control. I think we're in a place now where we can recognize that there's a lot of data to support the issues, the side effects of hormonal birth control, and that is indisputable. 

And at the same time, we can also talk about how, [for] some people, birth control is lifesaving and FAM isn't for everyone. And so, I do talk about the harms of birth control, the risks of birth control. But ultimately, I want people to feel like they are really excited about the method that they choose, whether that's hormonal birth control or fertility awareness. 

I want people to feel like they have all the information going into that decision, that they know the side effects, that they understand how birth control works, and that they can monitor their health on hormonal birth control and see if it is impacting their mental health, their physical health, and make a decision. 

So, it's not about being pro or anti-birth control. Even though that's kind of popped up and cropped up on the internet and people are being critiqued for being anti-birth control and how problematic that is. I don't know. I think we should be able to talk about the risks of birth control that are really well documented, and also help people feel really empowered with the methods that they choose.

Nicole: Yes. Thank you for speaking to that. I think it is a reminder of the way that people can take misinformation both about anything hormonal birth control and fertility tracking and have ulterior motives such as capitalizing on ways that you can make money or gain followers in the social media space through fear-mongering and also just the sense that things do not have to be polarized and it just kind of like, yeah. 

Nathalie: Yeah. Why does everything have to be polarized?

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Right. Just this idea that different things work for different people and I love that you are aware of the idea that what you teach is not for everyone. It might not be for everyone at a particular time in their life, and that's okay.

Nathalie: Yeah. I do, I really do believe that. Like, especially now, I haven't taught fertility awareness for very long, but I have taught long enough to have clients come into fertility awareness and go out of it and then come back to it. And so, you're right, it really is a lifelong thing and there might be times in your life where you're really diligently charting and it's working really well. And there are other times when it might fall to the wayside. 

I want to touch on one more thing about this article. Is that like the fertility awareness, that is the education, is at odds with the Western medical system. Because in this article, it really does try to kind of pit the two against each other. 

 But fertility awareness is not like this woo, natural hippie thing. It's very much based on the science of our physiology and our hormones. And it's very common sense. It doesn't require you to change anything about your body or fertility. It is simply observing your fertility signs and then choosing when to have unprotected sex and when not to. 

And I think that people are really sensitive to that conversation. Also, talking about the harms of birth control and feeling like they're at odds with one another, and that fertility awareness is not effective, which is why it does FAM a disservice because fertility awareness-based methods are really effective when learned properly and with an instructor. 

And so, a lot of articles won't fully understand that nuance and unfortunately will misconstrue the facts about fertility awareness and contribute to more misinformation. And then there's also, like you were talking about capitalizing on people's desire to come off birth control.

You'll see that with Natural Cycles or Daisy. Accounts of huge followers that use influencers’ marketing and really try to simplify fertility awareness almost too much to the point where I wouldn't recommend it for people who are avoiding. 

Because people want this like really simple. They want a simple [solution] and so it's not. Sometimes it can be simple if you're loosely avoiding, but if you're really strictly avoiding, I would learn a method thoroughly instead of choosing bits and pieces.

Nicole: Yes. Thank you for pointing out that nuance and I definitely have gotten that sense, from this article and from social media about almost pitting it against science when it is rooted and based in science. 

Nathalie: Exactly.

Nicole: And yeah, I'm curious about like, one thing I'm thinking about with that is like when I went to my OBGYN, and I asked them about fertility awareness method, I feel like they were not really aware of it or they knew about it but they didn't have enough to like, tell me where to go or tell me like what to do. And I am wondering like why that is? And why, or if you've thought about like, how can we push these conversations more with the medical community? 

Nathalie: Huh-uh.

Nicole: Or just even the sense of like when we were learning about sex education in high school, we were not taught that this is like an option.

Nathalie: Yeah. I think you're right. I think there's a lot of misinformation on people. Doctors don't know where to send their patients, or it takes more time to teach a fertility awareness-based method than to prescribe birth control and doctors don't... if someone doesn't want to get pregnant, that's probably going to be more effective if that's all that the patient is going to do, is be there in the doctor's office for the appointment.

It makes sense with what doctors are given and with the education doctors are given. But it would be really cool if they were able to kind of assess and have a conversation with someone about whether they'd be a good fit for fertility awareness. 

And then if they are, they could have places to refer clients or refer patients to. I think that would be really, really cool. And there are organizations that are connecting with doctors, facts about fertility. FAM also, the training that I did, trains doctors in a FAM protocol for more hormonal and reproductive health. So, I think there are organizations that are connecting with doctors, but for the most part, like your OBGYN or your general practitioner probably doesn't know what you're talking about when you talk about fertility awareness or thinks maybe it's the rhythm method or natural family planning. 

There was an article in 2016 that talked about fertility awareness practice and education in general practice and found that general practitioners, compared to fertility awareness educators had less information around fertility. So, if you are a fertility awareness educator, if you've even taken a class with a fertility awareness educator, you probably have a better grasp on fertility than your general practitioner does, or your doctor does, and it's just the reality of the training that they get. 

And so, I think what I tell my clients to do is to not go into a doctor's appointment searching for answers. Instead go with a purpose. Don’t go in expecting to be validated to switch to fertility awareness because you're probably not going to get that validation. Instead, go in with your own research and go in with an intention.

And in terms of sex ed, that's a whole other thing too. Hey, like, when I think back to my sex ed, I wish I had learned about ovulation, but I also don't know if I would've really been receptive to it. I think it came to me at the right time, and I think there is some liability in teaching teens fertility awareness. I don't know if teens have the prefrontal cortex development to use fertility awareness to make decisions around fertility like the general population would.

 Some might, but that comes with like a lot of kind of, yeah, sticky liability stuff. I think it would be really cool if young women and men were taught on menstruation, were taught about fertility from that early age and were really aware that other options exist outside of birth control.

But when I think about it, I don't really even remember picking up any information on birth control when I was in high school. So, who knows? There are like FAM teen instructors and there’s like a FAM teen program. So, some of that education is happening. You just have to go outside of the school system to get it.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Thank you for explaining that and also talking. If you are interested and curious about FAM and you have an appointment with your OBGYN, for example, what you can expect or what you might want to prepare for in terms of the conversation you might have. And I would love to move a little bit into the practicalities of FAM and thinking; if someone's listening and they're thinking, am I a good candidate for FAM?

If we could talk a little bit about that and wherever you want to start with in terms of; how would someone start FAM or how would someone start thinking; am I a good candidate for FAM? 

Nathalie: Or maybe you can help me out with it a little bit, Nicole, because I know you have some basis in FAM education. I think being in a stable partnership definitely helps, but it’s not necessarily limited to only having one partner,

Nicole:  Yeah.

Nathalie: Yeah. I think also having the mental time and space to learn.

Nicole: Yeah, for sure.

Nathalie: And just like being in a space in your life where you aren't in crisis and you can really kind of focus at least three months to applying the knowledge. Would you say that's accurate?

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I would say for sure someone who is not in crisis and has the mental space and time and patience to know that this is not something that is going to happen overnight and having something in between this time of being able to start FAM and if you're sexually active at the moment, just knowing that it's going to be a while before this can actually be realized.

Nathalie: Yeah.

Nicole: I started thinking about FAM when I started in a serious relationship. And I was in a monogamous relationship and I brought this up with my partner as well as something that I was interested in trying and knowing that there would be ways that I could perhaps educate myself to, then educate my partner about what's going on and that sort of thing.

And then I would say, something that I was curious about and wanted to touch up on, is someone who has like, regular cycles, versus someone who doesn't have regular cycles. I was thinking about, for example, the non-hormonal IUD or should I try FAM first and that sort of thing.

So, those were kind of the questions that were going through my mind when I was deciding about FAM. 

Nathalie: Yeah. No, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your experience because you’ve provoked a couple of thoughts for me. And I think that piece around having a buffer time of, if you're on hormonal birth control, what are you going to use until you've got FAM under your belt? And typically, if you're self-teaching, it will be about three cycles before you can go unprotected.

If you’re working with an instructor, it could be as soon as your first confirmed ovulation. But even once you've started charting with FAM, there's going to be a time in the cycle when you'll want to avoid unprotected sex. So, what are you going to use until then? Is that condoms? Is that a diaphragm? Is that a perfect withdrawal? Alternative sex? 

The world is your oyster. But you’re right. If you're used to having unprotected sex all the time, you can't do that with FAM because there's times in the cycle where you're fertile. And then there might be a little bit of a buffer time until you've really got FAM under your belt.

And if you're wanting to expedite that process, working with instructors is the best way to do that. But you can definitely self-teach, and also go unprotected. And then in terms of regular cycles versus irregular cycles, I love that you brought that up because a lot of people will ask, can I use fertility awareness if I have irregular cycles? Absolutely. With irregular cycles, what's happening is you're typically ovulating at a later… So especially if you have a long cycle, your ovulation is delayed, so you're ovulating later in the cycle. And fertility awareness is based on your own unique cycle and ovulation. So, it doesn't matter when you're ovulating, you will still be able to track it.

And it can almost be even more empowering and insightful with irregular cycles because you're not constantly wondering like, where the heck is my period? You know that ovulation is delayed. With symptothermal fertility awareness methods, they'll sometimes have a calculation to open the fertile window, and in a long cycle, it might mean that you have to use protection for a longer period of time than someone who has earlier ovulation. But that depends on the method. 

So, if you are in postpartum or if you're coming off birth control, or if you have PCOS and you have longer irregular cycles, it just depends on how important going unprotected before ovulation is for you because you might have to wait a little bit if you have irregular cycle. But you can use fertility awareness whether you have a regular cycle or not.

And it can also really help if you are tracking your hormonal health and you want to observe your ovulation and your cycle length. And if you're maybe taking some supplements or medication or changing your exercise or diet or reducing stress, like if you're making any lifestyle changes, you can track all that in a chart as well, which can be really cool.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. So, it's basically a way to also help people be informed about their bodies, not just about when they can and can't have unprotected sex, but also where their hormones are and where their period might be if they don't have regular periods yet.

Nathalie: Mm-hmm… Absolutely. And I'm someone who has always had irregular cycles ever since I started charting. And I don't know what I would do without FAM just for like monitoring my health because like I said, when I was really, really burnt out, my first warning sign was that my cycles were becoming 40 or 50 or 80 days long. 

And similarly, in the pandemic, the same thing happened. I was under a lot of stress and my cycles were getting longer. And it's really, really cool to see how stress can impact the length of your cycle, if you have PCOS, or if your cycles are a little bit more sensitive. And then to also see the impact that those changes can have on your cycle health.

It's really, really cool once you start charting to have all that data and to just see kind of your body laid out in front of you on your chart and your whole life laid out on the chart.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. It's really an empowering way to look at what your body is doing and how it's changing over the course of your cycle, whether it's longer or shorter, wherever you are. That's a really cool feature I could imagine.  And I'm curious, like as a fertility awareness instructor, do you get people who are more interested in that aspect of it? 

Nathalie:  I would say it's a very small percentage of people who aren't in relationships and just are wanting or just dating and aren't necessarily focused on birth control. I would say it's more of an unexpected side effect for people that once they learn the practicalities of FAM and they're like, “Oh yeah, now I know when I can have sex or when I should avoid unprotected sex,” then they start to really notice like, “Oh my goodness, there's all of this data that my body's giving me.” But in terms of people coming to work with me with that goal in mind, I would say it's a very small percentage.

Nicole: Mm-hmm… Got it. Yeah. That's good to know though that there are things that people can learn and can be empowered by through this. And you mentioned that people who are thinking about FAM need to have the mental space and time, for example, like three cycles or three months.

And what about people who are on hormonal birth control or have irregular cycles? I'd imagine that would take longer for them.

Nathalie: Yeah. Thanks for reminding me to come back to that. Because I know you asked that and I just totally ignored you.

Nicole: Oh, no worries. Yeah.

Nathalie: Okay, so if you have a copper IUD, a non-hormonal IUD, typically you will be ovulating on the copper IUD, but your cervical mucus won't be super accurate for fertility tracking. So, you can chart your temperature if you have a copper IUD in, you can chart your cervical mucus, but you might not see ovulatory patterns in your mucus until you take the IUD out. 

If you're on hormonal birth control, you'll want to come off of birth control before you start charting with FAM. I would say you could start learning fertility awareness before you come off, but you won't be able to track your biomarkers until you come off birth control, because birth control will suppress ovulation in most cases, and there won't really be anything to track unless you want to get into the habit of taking your temperature. 

For the timeframe, the research shows that this varies based on what type of birth control you were on, how long you were on, and what your cycles were like before. So, if you were on for 10 years and your cycles were very irregular before you went on, chances are, not all the time, but chances are more likely that there will be a longer period of transition once you come off to seeing regular cycles or fertile cycles. 

A lot of people will see delayed ovulation when they come off for the first few cycles. Minimal cervical mucus, shorter luteal phases, lighter bleeding. That's kind of the most common thing they see after coming off birth control. But this does depend on the type of birth control. Depo-Provera and the implant and the shots are typically the most disruptive on cycles after coming off, but it's short term, it's reversible.

I usually say for people that can take up to 18 months to see a full return to fertile cycles, especially if you've been on the shot or the implant. If cycles haven't returned and you weren't on the shot or implant, and things are still not progressing to normal by 8 to 12 months, that is 8 to 12 cycles, because cycles can be kind of funky when you first come off, then there might be some underlying hormonal imbalance to take a look at.

But there is this window of time to kind of give yourself grace after you come off that things will slowly on their own and improve over time.

Nicole: Got it. Yeah. Thank you for that. And just for people listening who are thinking, oh, in three months’ time, there might be other factors going on with your personal situation that might make it a little bit longer or a little bit more complicated, and this is really because hormonal birth control, they're changing your hormone levels, but they're also preventing you from ovulating, which is really what you're tracking in fertility awareness. 

Nathalie: Exactly. So, most birth control will suppress ovulation. Depending on the type of birth control you're on, it will prevent conception in different ways. All hormonal birth control essentially replaces the normal rise and fall of your cyclical hormones. So typically, you'll have a rise and fall of hormones in your cycle, but birth control suppresses this rise and fall. And you'll have a more day-to-day or 24-hour cycle of hormones. 

What birth control essentially does is in a regular cycle where you're ovulating and naturally cycling, there'll be a feedback loop between your pituitary and your ovaries. There are hormones that communicate with each other and create this feedback loop that's constantly running back to your brain and down to your ovaries.

And what birth control does is it stops that communication between the brain and the ovaries. So, most birth control will prevent ovulation, like you said, but not 100% of the time. 

The other ways that it will prevent conception is by thinning your uterine lining or altering your cervical fluid, impairing the egg from traveling through the fallopian tube to the uterus. All of those things can happen on birth control, but it really just depends on what type of birth control you're on.

And when you come off, there is this time where your body does relearn how to ovulate again and how to restore that communication between your brain and ovaries, because typically it's been prevented. And so that's why there can be some lapse after you come off where things are just kind of like, it's almost like a second puberty. Your body is relearning those pathways of communication. And so, it can be a little rocky at first, but then the more you ovulate, the more you cycle, your body's like, ‘oh yeah, I remember how to do this. I know these pathways well; I can do this.’

Nicole: Got it. Yes. Thank you for that and that reminder that if you are on hormonal birth control, to understand that this time that you're giving yourself, is really the time that your body's relearning those hormonal pathways and communications. And yeah. And I am curious about, you have first, for those listening, you have a lot of resources on your website and you offer a course on how to do this, and how to check cervical mucus, for example. 

But for anyone listening today who's been hearing about this idea that you do need mental time and space, you do need time to chart, can you talk a little bit about what that means? So, you're checking your temperature every day and you're checking your cervical mucus. And for someone thinking, how much of a time commitment is this?

Is this 10 minutes a day? Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nathalie: Great question Nicole. It doesn’t take very long every day.  It probably takes me 30 seconds a day. I take my temperature with my Tempdrop all night long. When I wake up, I sink that to my phone and it plots it into my fertility chart on my Read Your Body app. And then every time I go to the bathroom, I'm noticing cervical mucus, but I'm doing it while I'm doing something else. It's a habit that's attached to another habit. 

And while I'm going about my day, I'm noticing and paying attention to whether there's been any change in the sensation at the vulva as I go about my daily life. I don't have to do anything extra. The real learning curve is at the beginning when you're learning fertility awareness. Because we're not taught about our bodies and about our hormones and our physiology and how ovulation works. All of the information around learning fertility awareness can be new to a lot of people. And so that is where the learning curve really comes in. And it's not hard. It's really straight forward and it is very common sense, and you're really understanding the hormones, you're understanding how the cycle works, and then you're learning the rules of the method.

So how many high temperatures do I need? How many days past peak day, which is a term we use, in fertility awareness? Do I need it before I'm safe for unprotected sex? How do I determine my safe days at the beginning of the cycle? All of those things are things that you learn at the beginning, and then once you're applying that to the cycle, eventually it becomes common knowledge and you're not actually taking a lot of time to apply that knowledge. You're just putting the data into your chart and then you're using the rules of your method. 

So, more so I would say, when you're learning fertility awareness, doing it at a time when you have the mental capacity to learn a new skill, like any new skill. And asking yourself like, how important is this to me? Do I have just the space in my life to commit to this and stick to learning a new skill and a new habit? And if the answer is yes, then you're not going to have an issue learning FAM because you have an intention to learn the method.

Nicole: Got it. Yes. There's an idea of like, there's an upfront investment of your time, but it's great to hear of your daily habit of taking your temperature and then like it's a 30-second time commitment, more or less than just being aware throughout your day. And yeah. And I'm curious about like, for someone listening and thinking like, is this expensive?

Do I need a fancy thermometer?  I'm imagining you have to pay for an app for a subscription, and then also materials or resources to learn how to do this. Can you talk a little bit about that? If someone's worried about the financial aspect?

Nathalie: So, you can learn FAM for almost free, if you get an oral basal body thermometer for under $20, go to your library, and get a copy of a fertility awareness manual. And then, okay, maybe not free, but under $100, let's say.

Nicole: Yeah.

Nathalie: And then pay $14 a year for your app subscription. That's the cost of Read Your Body. So there absolutely is a way to learn fertility awareness for really, really cheap. And there also are ways to learn fertility awareness that are more expensive. So, if you don't want to use an oral thermometer and you want to use a wearable thermometer, that's going to be more expensive, but it's not necessary. 

The Barebones oral thermometer is great. If you have regular cycles, you're probably going to find self-teaching easier by reading a manual and applying all the knowledge, but it's absolutely possible. So, the two self-teaching resources I mention or recommend are Taking Charge of Your Fertility and then the Sensiplan manual from Reply OBGYN, it's called Sensiplan Natural and Safe. I find the Sensiplan manual and workbook to be a lot easier to apply than taking charge of your fertility. But both are easily accessible, self-teaching resources. If you work with the fertility awareness educator, it is going to be more expensive. But again, it's not necessary.

And what a lot of people will do, is will start out self-teaching and maybe it'll be totally fine and they apply all the knowledge and use FAM successfully. Or maybe they just want someone to hold their hand and walk them through it, which is where a FAM educator comes in. The Billings ovulation method has a mandate to not turn anyone away.

So, if you really are wanting to work with an educator, but you're financially strapped, you can approach a fertility awareness, a Billings ovulation method in your country, and find an instructor that way. So, there are lots of accessible ways to learn fertility awareness. If you want to self-teach and you have the time and space to dedicate to that, it's absolutely possible to learn for under $100.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. There are many different ways and there are Barebones that are more expensive ways, and my understanding too is that the important thing is that you feel comfortable with what you're doing. And this is not something that you can half-ass. You have to make a commitment to it and you have to understand what you're doing. 

Can you talk a little bit about the idea of why can't someone half-ass it and like the effectiveness of this, if they follow all of the rules and apply this every day?

Nathalie: Yeah, so I think it just goes back to making sure you're consistent with how you chart and sticking to a method of fertility awareness. So, you do need to observe your biomarkers every day or almost every day. If you miss a day here or there, it's not a big deal, but if you're missing 75% of the data, it's going to be impossible to interpret. 

So, it's really about staying consistent so that you have an accurate picture of fertility. And this is just especially important if you're strictly avoiding. If getting pregnant is not a huge deal, by all means you can half-ass fertility awareness. It's more, if you really don't want to get pregnant, then you're going to want to follow the rules and not take known risks. When you are using the fertility awareness method properly and working with an educator who can make sure you're charting properly, the method is highly effective.

And I'm hesitant to mention any efficacy rates because it does depend on the method and whether you're working with an educator, but it has been shown to be as effective as some methods of hormonal birth control.  Yeah, so we really can't half-ass it because if you are missing data, you aren't getting an accurate picture of fertility if you are taking risks. 

Fertility awareness is only as effective as whatever method you use in the fertile window. So, if you are fertile and you go unprotected, the risk of pregnancy is going to be higher. The efficacy is very much in your hands in the case of fertility awareness. So, I think a lot of people hear fertility awareness or cycle tracking and think that you know, you're loosely tracking temperature or some ovulation signs. But with fertility awareness-based methods, the method is really designed to be used in its entirety and not in bits and pieces because you're really tracking that window of fertility and you're wanting to make sure that ovulation has occurred. And when you do all of that, the method is quite effective.

Nicole: Yes. I think that's really important for people to understand and think about like that consistency and some of our listeners may not be so worried about becoming pregnant and just knowing that okay, you don't have to track every day, and for people who are trying to avoid pregnancy, that if you miss one day or something like that, it is okay.

Nathalie: Okay. And it's also like if you're missing days around ovulation, that's where you might have to wait a day or two to confirm. You might have to wait a day or two before you can go unprotected. So, it's not the end of the world. 

But if you’re missing like all of your data and you just have a day or two here or there, it's going to be really hard to have anything to refer to in the chart, anything to compare to baseline, and then you won't actually really know where you are in your cycle. 

And I don't want to sound gatekeeping about FAM at all. I think it's just like I speak to, when I'm working with a client, I'm going to be as conservative as possible. I want someone to trust me that if I see something on the chart and I know that they're strictly avoiding, then I'm going to have a chat with them about it. Because I know that I have to have a chat with them about it. 

But just like I have the most conservative approach in mind, and then someone can, a client can take that and do with that what they will. But I want them to trust me. That is the perspective that I take, and most people that I work with are avoiding. And so, if someone is loosely tracking and is okay getting pregnant, that's totally fine. Like I have no judgment on that at all. It's more just knowing your intentions with pregnancy and making sure that you want it to be effective, your behavior needs to match that intention, if that makes sense.

Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm curious about, let's say someone speaking for a friend, but also myself, who doesn't wake up every time, if you want to sleep in on the weekend, how problematic is that? Is it just as long as you take it when you wake up?

Nathalie: Yeah. So, with oral basal body temperature, basically, your basal body temperature is your lowest body temperature attained during rest. And so, the reason you want to take it at the same time each day is you want to compare that to baseline. If you sleep in, then typically your temperature is going to be higher.

If you wake up earlier, your temperature is going to be lower. And so, you want to take it at the same time each day. so, you're not having that influence of sleeping in or getting up early. That's going to change your temperature. 

You want to get an accurate reading of your temperature each day. If you missed a temp on the weekend or sleep in on the weekend, it’s not the end of the world. You are still going to have enough data to interpret your chart. Fertility awareness charting should be able to adapt to your life. And it's not the end of the world if you miss a temp here or there.

There also are wearable thermometers that you can use if you don't want to wake up and take your temperature. I like Tempdrop, but there are other wearables that are being compared to oral temps that are being shown to be quite accurate in measuring temperature as well. So that's an option too. 

But I would say just start with an oral thermometer. Try to be as consistent as you can, and if you miss a day, just start again tomorrow. It's not the end of the world. If you miss it on the first day of your temperature shift, it just means you'll have to wait an extra day to confirm ovulation.

But for a lot of people, that's not a huge deal.

Nicole: Got it. Yeah. That's helpful to know that if your sleeping patterns are super irregular, you can try something like a wearable, to help with that as well.

Nathalie: Yeah. And I've also found, like I don't wake up at the same time every day and I've been using an oral thermometer for the past couple of cycles and there'll be a variation of half an hour or 45 minutes from the usual time that I wake up.

Because I typically, if I don't have anything to get up for, I won't set an alarm, I'll just wake up on my own. And I found that the temps are still really accurate. I think it's more if your regular temp to temp is 7:00 AM and you're sleeping in until 10 or 11, or you're getting up at 3 in the morning, that's when you're really going to see drastic changes to the chart.

But you might find that for you, it's not as sensitive if you temp like 45 minutes earlier or half an hour earlier or later than your normal time.

Nicole: Got it. Yeah, that's super helpful to know. And my last, I would say, FAM-related question, is about, people might start thinking about this when they are in a serious relationship or a monogamous relationship. 

But I'm curious about like what you would say to someone who is thinking about; how can I get my partner involved. What type of support should I talk to my partner about or if there is something that I should tell my partner before I do this?

Nathalie: Great question. From my experience, what I've heard from clients is the most common response is that their partner doesn't trust fertility awareness, and they feel like it's going to be a less effective option than hormonal birth control, because of that misconception around FAM.

So, explaining that it's not the rhythm method that it is a highly scientific method based on your biomarkers that's unique to you and you’re tracking your real-time fertility, explaining the physiology of ovulation, of the window fertility, and when conception can and can't occur. And even inviting your partner to listen to this podcast episode with you. 

Or, I have a free online course on FAM called FAM Fundamentals. Watch that with your partner or invite them to a workshop on fertility awareness or a fertility awareness session with a fertility awareness educator. Like, involve them in the research that you are doing, because they might not have done the same extensive research as you. And so, getting them involved in that can be a really good way of just kind of debunking some of those myths. 

And then I think it's also really important to communicate why you want to switch to FAM. If you are on hormonal birth control, and you want to switch for your mental health, for your physical health, I think having a heart-to-heart with your partner about why it's important to you. I would hope that they would appreciate the reasons that you want to come off and have your best health and mental health in mind and want the same for you, even if they're hesitant on the efficacy and what it exactly is.

If you communicate, you know why it's important to you, then I hope that opens up a conversation for them to really take it seriously and commit to kind of learning more about what it is.

Nicole:  Yeah. Thank you for that.  I think it's important to have people understand that it's something that will affect their partner too. And so, it's going to be a conversation that, or multiple conversations that might need to be had. And yeah. 

And one aspect about you that we haven't really talked about is that you are an entrepreneur, that you have fertility awareness projects, you have the Cycle Love course, and you also teach other people to be fertility instructors. Can you talk a little bit about that, what it's like to run your own business, and what it's like to teach other people to teach the fertility awareness method?

Nathalie: Yeah. I love running my own business. I find that the perfect combination of my passion for fertility awareness and then also my creative problem-solving side, and I'm so lucky that I get to do this for my job. It's honestly a dream come true and a dream that I never thought I would be able to live.

It is something that, yeah, it definitely comes with challenges and learning curves, and I didn't start this business with any prior business experience, so I have learned as I go basically. So, yeah, I think it comes very naturally to me, expressing myself and sharing this knowledge.

It has always been something that I've loved to do on social media. And then as I've shared, I've created a community of people who get my perspective and my approach and my vibe, and I just get to work with those people as clients. So, it's kind of a win-win. 

And I also really love fertility awareness education, and I'm really passionate about the work that fertility awareness educators do because of what we were talking about before like there is misinformation around wellness coaches and influencers.

There is a difference between coaches, health coaches, and fertility awareness educators. And there also is just a huge need in the space of fertility awareness education for evidence-based secular teacher training. There is no teacher training that I would wholeheartedly recommend without caveats.

It’s like every teacher training that exists has pros and cons, and I have gone through two teacher training programs. And a colleague, Tami Stroud and I have put together Fertility Knowledge Collective, which is not a teacher training program, but it's a knowledge-sharing program, where fertility awareness educators from all different methods and backgrounds, secular, religious, cervical mucus only, symptothermal, symptom hormonal, we come together and we share our knowledge. 

We share evidence-based approaches to interpreting fertility. We ask the hard questions and we dig into the research and what different methods say. So, I'm just really lucky that I get to work with Tami, who is an extremely experienced and skilled FAM educator who has been teaching for a long time, and just, all of this knowledge and nuance comes really naturally to her.

And so, I just get to work with Tami and we get to put together all of our ideas and present that to FAM educators and facilitate conversations. So that's what we do in Fertility Knowledge Collective. It's for fertility awareness educators. It's not a training program.

And then I teach clients in my online course Cycle Love. So, when I was first teaching fertility awareness, I was teaching in person and in groups and then moved to teaching online. I was teaching live every session. And then it evolved to pre-recording those live sessions, which are now dripped over three months. So, people have access to those lessons and watch them on their own time. Because I was finding that I was just repeating myself over and over and over again, and was able to just record all of that information. 

And then people really like being able to watch things on their own time. And then we also have live resources. So, group charting calls, live calls with me where we go over your chart. And then an online group, which is a really cool corner of the internet, for Cycle Love alumni where we continue to apply fertility charting to the lifespan, you know, beyond just taking cycle love, but all the things that come up as you're charting long term. 

So, there is a lot of moving parts to fertility awareness project,

Nicole: Yeah.

Nathalie: I also have a business program for people who want to teach fertility awareness online. Basically, just sharing what I've learned over the years, what's worked and hasn't worked with online marketing, and creating an online course. So yeah, I definitely have a lot of ideas and do a lot of different things at once. But it's fun for me and it keeps me really interested in what I'm doing. 

And I think I get bored really easily, so I just kind of keep doing more things. So, I've been working at simplifying and really focusing on what works really well.

Like, for example, a lot of my clients find me on Instagram and I also have a TikTok. So why am I putting time into TikTok when I know Instagram works super well? Like really focusing on what is actually making a difference in my business, where people are actually finding me and putting more effort into those things.

Nicole: Amazing! Thank you for explaining and I'm so grateful that we could have this conversation today and for everything that you offer and the education that you are putting out there, and we will definitely put all of the links to what you offer in the show notes and also other materials that we've mentioned throughout the episode.

Thank you for walking us through so many things related to FAM and to really help people decide whether this is something that they want to start thinking about. And I really appreciate your time and being here today.

Nathalie: Yeah, it's been so fun chatting. I feel like we've covered so much ground in this episode, so, I'm really, really excited to be able to share it and it's just so great getting to connect with you in this capacity and to kind of catch up and, and see what you're up to as well, Nicole!

Nicole: Yes. Thank you, Nathalie! And yes, it was really great connecting with you and we really did talk a lot about so many different aspects of FAM, which I really appreciate. So, thank you! 

Nathalie: Yeah. Thank you so much!

Nicole: Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Multitudes and I hope you enjoyed my conversation with FAM Instructor Nathalie Daudet. And please be sure to check out the show notes for all of the links and resources that we talked about in this episode.

Thanks so much for listening.  And I'll see you next time.